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nifty

@nifty@lemmy.world

smol, femme, nerd

libera te tutemet ex machina, and shitpost~~

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nifty OP ,
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I think she’s the reason why I have such a thing for red heads

nifty ,
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Who is downvoting you lol? You’re absolutely right!

nifty ,
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I want to call it oppussy (aka opposition pussy)

nifty OP ,
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Haskell is an awesome name for a baby

nifty ,
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There are some keyboards where you can replace control buttons depending on your OS, e.g. a windows key instead of an Mac OS key etc

nifty ,
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Literally me irl. Milk spilt, face sad.

nifty , (edited )
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Coco the gorilla might have been but turned out to be far removed (largely because she faked knowing sign language and her handlers didn’t know sign well enough to see she was faking it.)

Language comprehension is often mistaken for sentience, but everything communicates on some level. Developing a means for communication doesn’t necessarily imply sentience. By default, Mammals are conscious because of the way they propagate themselves through different means in complex environments. OTOH, bacteria are not conscious because their propagation is mostly driven by chemical responses. For example, indv. bacteria are not engaging in game theoretic interactions with other bacteria over resources for self-propagation.

Heck, we can’t be certain the person who wakes up every morning is the same as the person who went to sleep.

Yes, we can on many levels. I am not sure who says these things, any links?

nifty ,
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Ah rationalism, my mind blocks out unpleasant things all the time. There’s no proof the Universe wasn’t farted out by God. In this case, I guess I’d treat it as any other fantastical statement: extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

I think people who liken consciousness to a collection of properties make the same mistake as people attributing language comprehension as a property of consciousness. You cannot put discrete elements together and call something a ship any more than you can put discrete elements together and call it conscious. A translation app can see and translate images from one language to another, but the app is not conscious.

Regarding the changes a conscious being experiences over time: you can change on a chemical level (as one does over time), you can change on a genetic level (this also happens for any living thing over time), and you can change over an organism level, but you remain the same person (even after you get up from sleeping) because you maintain some internally directed sense of self. Internal self-direction is a key property of consciousness.

nifty ,
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By design, philosophical concepts neither require nor can produce proof.

Hmm, well-reasoned thought experiments apply their logic in a way that provides a structural basis for maintaining their arguments, which serves as the proof for the thought experiment.

If your idea of arguing how “you” exists includes the line of reasoning that you need proof, then the truth to you is that “you” don’t exist, because you cannot prove your consciousness to someone else either. Just the same as I cannot empirically prove my consciousness to you.

As a conscious being I prove my existence by engaging with external stimuli (like other people) while maintaining an internally motivated and directed sense of self for my self-propagation. Absent any need for self-propagation and being only something that reacts or responds, l would be a humble bot. An amalgamation of chemicals and genetics can react and respond, but it’s not necessarily motivated for self propagation.

Viruses are interesting in that they behave like self propagating organisms, but at an indv. level they lack the capacity for adjusting their responses strategically to external stimuli. That is, the adaptive response for virii is left up to random genetics (same as for bacteria), which precludes consciousness.

I cannot speak to you being a conscious being in case you’re a bot. Bots can pass the Turing test, but passing the Turing test doesn’t necessarily guarantee consciousness.

All this to say, feel free to share your thoughts. I am not close minded, even if I am strongly biased towards some ideas vs others. Arguments should be judged based on their strength, I think.

nifty ,
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I don’t know what you think is happening here, sorry I am confused.

Anyway don’t worry about it! When I say proof, I mean something like this: https://milnepublishing.geneseo.edu/concise-introduction-to-logic/chapter/4-proofs/

nifty ,
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Okey doke, do as you wish! FYI, though I wasn’t asking for a “proof of the Ship of Theseus”, more about how one derives that you’re not the same conscious entity before and after going to sleep. I think I’ll go do some reading, I am sure someone’s said something somewhere about this.

Realistically, I am just going to look at more meemees and go to sleep.

Again, philosophy is only tangentially related to proof.

Edit: I disagree with this again based on previously stated reasons. Philosophy has never been without reason or logic :)

nifty , (edited )
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The notion that we might not be comes up in multiple places, but is largely an extrapolation of the Transporter Paradox, in which continuity is the only known link we have between some things in two states (as per the Ship of Theseus). AI programmers contemplate it when they have to reboot their test subject (which are related to, but not the same as LLMs or Generative AI projects, rather are efforts towards creating AGI).

The first idea we need to separate is between being conscious (awake) and conscious (maintaining an internal and external state for enabling both self reflection and reflecting on the environment). Digital beings certainly do the first type of conscious, and AI development wants to move them to the second state of conscious. The reason current LLMs are parrots is they’re incapable of self reflection to a persistent and longterm degree. Think of a human or complex biological organism: these types of beings maintain an internal and external state of some kind of memory persistence which enables all manner of reflection across different nodes of interactions. In fact, memory issues are often associated with personality changes or degradation in interacting with external stimuli. The consciousness of non-digital beings is therefore dependent on the duration and persistence of their memory and capability to learn and adapt to external and internal stimuli. Note: an individual memory is imperfect, but an emergent property of memory persistence is creating a culminating state that averages to some degree of consistency over time for organisms without memory issues.

Why sleep doesn’t affect the state of the conscious being: while sleep does induce dreaming (memory reformatting), conscious beings can differentiate between a dream and non-dream states upon waking, depending on the complexity of the organism. In fact, wakefulness has a unique ability in which reformatted memory from sleep is reconsidered or reflected upon towards a prior existing state. I think the first misguided idea is thinking of NREM sleep as a state of unconsciousness that impacts overall memory persistence during an awake state. We know from our own experience as people who go to sleep and wake up everyday, we’re able to rewrite what we dreamt to reconcile and sense make with our persistence internal and external state maintenance. However, again this depends on the cognitive capacity of the organism, and at the very least personality aspects are maintained for different types of organisms (like your dog or cat etc).

Digital beings also maintain persistent memories after sleep states, though a key difference is that reformatted memory is inaccessible in digital beings. Here is where AI development wants to make progress, that is enable a machine state that can acquire memory longterm persistence despite reformatting. This type of long term memory persistence and reconfiguration ability is key in learning and adaptation processes for complex biological organisms.

How can we ensure either a human or digital being is the same after it goes to sleep: if you plant false memories during sleep, how does that change the interaction of the being with its external environment? Secondly, does the being have the capacity to reconcile incongruent memories? We know human and complex organism memory is susceptible to false memories during sleep: https://amp.theguardian.com/science/neurophilosophy/2015/mar/09/false-memories-implanted-into-the-brains-of-sleeping-mice

However one key aspect is that we have some understanding of differentiating between true and false memories on a neurological level, even if the conscious being (for any number of complex reasons) may fool itself : https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.10.21.349530v1.full

Being able to retain and maintain long term memory pertinence (which enable internal and external state maintenance), and using that to reconcile interactions with internal and external stimuli ensures a conscious being maintains its state after sleep.

Okay now: how do you you’re not simply reconstructed by something? How do you know it’s the you that went to sleep or got reconstructed etc. First, a key property of the universe we inhabit is its tendency towards an entropy maximizing state. Second, stochastic processes exist in any system. So a perfect reconstruct system does not exist (no matter how tantalizing it is to think about).

Therefore, a transporter or transfomer that continually constructs something will inevitably introduce changes over time that differentiate the organism each time it is used. What is the timescale of this? Well, if you’re being reconstructed every time you sleep, including short naps or forced closures because of tiredness, then you’re introducing changes with each sleep, and these changes will add up quickly, to the point that you may develop a different state of memory persistence going from day to day. But more importantly, we would experience this on a population level and at a perceptible degree to affect interactions with other organisms. Like your dog wakes up to find you an enemy, but not just your dog it’s every dog every that wakes up different each day, and becomes different to distinguish itself completely from its past self to the point of alienation (ie not a simple personality change as expected from aging or interactions with the environment).

Who we are is a very ephemeral state, a quasi-stable event. And we exist longer than a day of consciousness only because we define our narratives that way.

I don’t know, feel free to act differently than you usually do, see how you feel about it. It’s not just “narrative”. Internal state maintenance and interaction with external stimuli are a consequence emergent biological processes that are more than our self storytelling capabilities.

Feel free to write this off as uninformed rambling lol

Edit to remove unnecessary stuff

nifty ,
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We assume the people we talk to are conscious, but then they could be Turing complete bots, or a Chinese room, or a p-zombie. You’ve essentially argued that you cannot demonstrate to us that you are actually conscious, only that you seem so convincingly.

Right, except non digital beings have different modes of interactions with universe. In fact, more than that a key difference is that conscious beings impose themselves on the universe in an effort to self propagate. While we’re just interacting digitally, I cannot ensure anything, but that by itself doesn’t mean anything.

I am not sure of anything, but I dislike reading the same ideas that don’t seem to add up as far as I am concerned shrug

Again, we don’t have any edge cases of anything that is nearly conscious and appears to be, but isn’t, or something that is conscious but only barely

But we do, people in comas for example. They maintain personality and memory after persistent unconscious periods, which differentiates them from both unconscious organisms, and also precludes the reconstruction hypothesis.

nifty ,
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How does slow them down? Like they get distracted by confusing or thought provoking art?

nifty ,
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There are people who unironically believe this.

nifty ,
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There’s literally chocolate hummus now and it’s yuck. Fight me

nifty OP ,
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You’re right. I didn’t make this, but maybe the creator was accounting for the round in the chamber? I don’t guns, so no clue.

nifty OP ,
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Good to know! Makes it easier to decide what to get next time I play Russian roulette.

nifty ,
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It doesn’t make sense even from a hygiene perspective, it’s just racism because no one has banned surfers and their wetsuits.

Christians think gay people are trying to convert people to being gay *because Christians try to convert people to being Christian*.

Christians literally go door to door: "Knock Knock Knock. Have you found Christianity? I've chosen a christian way of life and I think it's a great way of life. I think you should choose to be christian. I think you should raise your children to be christian. I think we should teach christianity in school. I think we should...

nifty ,
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It would be simpler to not be a bisexual. Why choose to make life harder?

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